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Fear of Hogpocalypse

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Here are a few "warnings" from the manufacturer. You shouldn't contaminate water, but what is stopping a hog from dying in water and contaminating it? You are supposed to dispose of all carcasses properly, but there is no way is Hades that is possible because they travel for miles. And how do you keep dogs, scavengers, etc. from eating a carcass? And what about the crumbs? Do these folks even know how a hog eats? LOTS of crumbs fall from the sides of their mouths. And keeping cattle away for at least 90 days AFTER the poison has been removed may be the biggest red flag yet.

 

Here it is:

 

 

This product may be toxic to fish, birds and other wildlife. Dogs and other predatory and scavenging mammals and birds might be poisoned if they feed upon animals that have eaten the bait. Do not apply this product directly to water, to areas where surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high-water mark. Do not contaminate water when disposing of equipment wash waters.

Quote:
USE RESTRICTIONS: This product may only be used to control feral hogs (Sus scrofa) on pastures, rangeland, forests, non-crop areas, and crop lands. This bait may only be applied in hog feeders equipped with heavy lids (8 to 10 lbs. of total weight) on bait compartments so as to limit direct access to bait by nontarget animals. Feral hogs must be conditioned to accept feed from the bait dispensers and to open the weighted lids to bait compartments. Kaput Feral Hog Bait: Page 3 of 5 Final Label 01.03.17


Do not apply this bait directly on the ground, including all types of ground surface (e.g., bare or plant-covered ground, paved surfaces, etc.). Apply this product only in hog feeders consistent with the description provided above.


Apply bait in fenced areas, if available.


When handling bait or animal carcasses, wear protective gloves made of barrier laminate, polyethylene, butyl rubber (>14 mils), nitrile rubber (>14 mils), neoprene rubber (>14 mils), natural rubber (>14 mils), polyvinyl chloride (>14 mils), or Viton (>14 mils).


Store this product out of reach of children, pets, domesticated animals, and wildlife.


Post bilingual caution signs (English and Spanish) in the treated areas to warn the public of the presence of the Warfarin bait and to forbid disturbance of bait dispensers and hog carcasses. Post these signs on public roads, trails, and pathways within and at common points of access to treated areas.

All carcasses found must be disposed of properly.

"

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This plan reminds me of the Oklahoma plan to release panthers in the state to reduce the ferel hog population. Problem was, nobody told the panthers to ONLY eat hogs. So there was a negative impact on cattle, sheep and deer. This program has been denied/dismissed by the state as a urban legend but those pesky sitings and pictures continue to come in...

 

 

 

That old story has been around as long as I can remember (and I've lived here 56 years)......except they were supposedly released to control deer population......it was a bogus story then and still is. Oklahoma Wildlife Dept has never denied that there are mountain lions in the state but they certainly didn't release them to control deer or hogs. A male mountain lion can have a 200 square mile territory and young males are often pushed out of areas by dominant males and move to suitable habitat. I know of one lion that was found near a train tract outside of Red Rock, OK in 2004, it wore a tracking collar from South Dakota and had traveled over 700 miles! Another was hit by a car near Minco, OK in 2012 and it's DNA showed it came from the Black Hills. Mountain lions are native to Oklahoma but, historically, most were killed out to protect livestock......deer are also native to Oklahoma but I can remember back in the late 60s and early 70s it was EXTREMELY rare to even see a deer track in most of the state because they had been killed out in most areas. While confirmed mountain lion sightings seem to be increasing, they are still uncommon in the state.......I've been hunting and spending time in the outdoors most of my life (including a lot of predator calling) and, although I have seen tracks a couple of times, I have never actually seen a mountain lion.

 

 

Back on topic.....poisoning hogs with warfarin sure seems like a stupid idea because of all the reasons mentioned......but I would like to hear what the Texas wildlife biologists say about those concerns before taking a side. I'm guessing they know more about it than I do?

 

I really doubt any method of control will be effective as long as people are making money off wild hogs! It's funny how loudly farmers/ranchers complain about hog problems but then either won't allow hunting/ trapping or want to charge people to hunt/trap them........

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May not be as bad as it looks.....

 

 

 

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/Texas-Ag-Commissioner-approves-killing-feral-hogs-10950587.php

'Hog apocalypse': Texas Ag Commissioner approves killing feral hogs with poison

By Craig Hlavaty, Houston Chronicle

Published 11:18 am, Wednesday, February 22, 2017

 

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I

The people of Texas are getting a bit more serious about the feral hogs problem plaguing the state.

The nasty swine cost Texans nearly $52 million in damages a year making eradicating them a major issue. Nationally, they cost Americans nearly $1.5 billion.

Texas Agriculture Commissioner Sid Miller approved the use of pesticides this week to aid in the killing of feral hogs, long a scourge of Texas landowners. The approved poison is called Kaput Feral Hog Lure and contains warfarin which is already used to kill larger rodents.

The colorful Miller offered up a meaty quote to reporters on Monday regarding the poison plan.

"This is going to be the hog apocalypse, if you like: If you want them gone, this will get them gone," Miller said.

Some Texas hunters are miffed because they enjoy hunting and killing the hogs with firearms or a bow and arrow, if they are especially skilled. For hunters shooting the hogs is a lot more fun than just poisoning them. The Texas Hog Hunters Association's Eydin Hansen says hunters who shoot and kill the hogs for their dinner tables would be less likely to if they suspect the hogs have poison in their systems. That group has started a Change.org petition to protest Miller's decision.

Scavenger animals like buzzards and coyotes may also be exposed to the chemical pellets aimed at eradicating feral hogs if they eat the hog carcass.

Miller's office wrote in statement to Dallas' CBS11 they fully-researched the Kaput product and considered the environmental impact. before approving its use on feral hogs

"Kaput Feral Hog Bait has been researched extensively and field-tested in Texas over the past decade in partnerships with various state agencies including TDA. Hogs are susceptible to warfarin toxicity, whereas humans and other animals require much higher levels of exposure to achieve toxic effects," the statement said.

The substance will only be available to licensed pesticide applicators, according to Miller's office, and dispensed in special hog feeders built for attracting the hogs.

"Warfarin has been studied extensively in animals and is practically non-toxic to birds. Due to the insolubility of warfarin in water, there should be no impact to aquatic life. Non-target wildlife, livestock and domestic pets would have to ingest extremely large quantities over the course of several days to reach a toxic level of warfarin in the bloodstream," Miller's office added.

The Texas A&M AgriLife Extension Service has approved of the use of warfarin. Texas Parks and Wildlife Department has been consulted as well and they support this new feral hog control management practice.

"In general, secondary exposure to other animals is low because the levels of warfarin in target animals are generally too low to be toxic to either a predator or scavenger," Miller's statement read.

What about the nagging worry that a feral hog's meat is inedible? Some people say they taste just as good or better than standard pig flesh.

"Warfarin at 0.005 percent as a feral hog toxicant has been shown to have a low level of residue in hog meat, especially in muscle tissue, which is what humans typically consume. One person would have to eat 2.2 lbs of hog liver–where the warfarin is most concentrated in the body–to achieve the same exposure as a human would receive in one therapeutic dose of warfarin," the statement read.

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I signed the petition . Remember asbestos was our friend until they discovered it wasn't . But then I like eating them nasty ole pigs , but I do understand the Ranchers and Farmers point of view , they raise livestock or crops to make a living , hogs do damage , especially to the farmers .

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Good information there from both Bobby and Mark. It would be pretty easy to sit here and punch holes in the logic and language used to describe the "safe use" of warfarin that Kaput puts out, or the defending of it's use by the state agencies involved in promoting it. It would also probably be pointless, as it is apparent they have already decided it's going to happen. I remember back in the '70s, I believe, when TP&W and its biologists defended putting grass carp in Lake Conroe, stating they would eat the hydrilla, then die off. They then proceeded to eat not only the hydrilla, but any growing vegetation, and thrived, making Conroe a lake devoid of any vegetation cover, and TP&W then making it illegal not to kill any grass carp caught because of that. Their mistake there only affected fishing. If they have made a mistake here, it could lead to a lot worse scenario. I hope they get this one right.

 

OP

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As I said I am not adventing for the use of this stuff. As worried as anyone. But my land owners say they have been monitoring this issue for a while and not just the last few days. I just have to wait and see how it effects them and me.

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One thing to keep in mind is that Miller is being fed info regarding research directed and controlled by the manufacturer of the product. Think there could be any money-based bias going on? Kaput stands to make millions.

 

Independent research from universities, etc. don't quite jibe with what Kaput has to say. If you dig through early testing, you'll see that even cattle perished from Kaput. It wasn't safe then and still isn't now, no matter how they want to sugar-coat this.

 

I have always been an outspoken advocate against frivolous lawsuits. But if this goes through and things like birth defects, etc., can be attributed to the accidental ingestion of the toxin, I hope wth all my strength that they sue both Miller and the manufacturer for all they can.

 

One last thought: remember when high-ranking US officials assured the public that Agent Orange was safe to use and posed no health risks to the troops???

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No misunderstanding here, I'm neither for or against the use of this product, I don't know enough about it to make that judgement. It may be the worst thing imagined or it may be the best product/method to help control the problem, I just don't know.

 

I also don't buy the idea that because there is currently only one supplier that there is something fishy about it......while warfarin isn't a new product, maybe a commercial bait specifically targeting hogs and containing warfarin has a very limited market.....so far. Or, maybe the current supplier has a patent that allows them to be the only producer?? Either way, if the use of this product becomes widespread, I'd bet other suppliers will figure out a way to get into the market.

 

Bobby, do you have any links to early testing or university research?? If so, could you share them, I'd like to read them. So far, I have only been able to find one.....Here is part of one research paper from 1990.......I wish I could read the entire paper but they want $42 to download it.

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3809054?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

 

The warnings from the manufacturer don't concern me......I believe they are simply following federal and state requirements. Lots of products we buy everyday contain product warnings that are simply ludicrous......especially those mandated by the state of California!

 

I'm not saying we should support the use of this product, but I'm not ready to freak out about it......I don't think we have enough info to make an informed decision yet......apparently, the Texas Ag. Commission believes they have enough info to approve its use and I'm sure they know more about it than any of us.

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As Mark noted, Kaput probably has to cover its rear end by listing any and every possibility just to try to be legally safe. But, having said that, there is a very large disparity between the warnings given by Kaput about the possible poisoning of dogs, birds, and surface water, for example, and the information given by Miller et.al. in defense of its use, stating that pets, birds, and water are of really no concern. It's like reading A Tale of Two Cities, only with Warfarin as the leading character. Just to be on the safe side, I don't think I'll advise my wife to give up her current blood thinner in favor of eating 2 1/2 pounds of poisoned hog liver just to save a little money, though.

I'm still interested in the overall cost to a landowner if they opt into this program. It seems they would need to hire a professional licensed pesticide person, buy their own special feeding apparatus, "train" the hogs to eat from them before using Warfarin for the first time, pay for whatever it is the Warfarin costs, and then provide for the "disposal of the carcasses in a safe manner", whatever that means (hire someone to come and get the dead pigs, or dig a very deep ditch and bury the hogs, etc.) Does anyone know if the state is planning to help out with the paying for this, or is it entirely up to the landowner? The answer to that might influence which landowners opt in or out of its use.

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight that I know of, but it is interesting to speculate as to the innuendos that it promulgates.

 

OP

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Yeah we've had several great decisions made by the dept of wildlife . Grass Carp , English Sparrows , Starlings , Nutria , wolf up north , Grizzlies in Colorado and so on . Sometimes they do good things like antler restriictions , well maybe that isn't a good thing in some areas , huh Jerry . I hope they prove me wrong , but I can't see this as a good thing for us hunters and probably in the long run for Ranchers and Farmers either . Then as Mark has said , I am basing my opinion a lot on emotions .

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Sometimes they do good things like antler restriictions , well maybe that isn't a good thing in some areas , huh Jerry .

I've never been a fan of the 13" rule for a number of reasons, nor of the accompanying license to shoot any spike you want. The two laws are contradictory in nature, if you stop and think about the alleged reason behind the 13" rule in the first place. TP&W caved to the influential landowners rather than logic on that one, and maybe on the current topic, too. If you're holding all the cards, it's easy to deal the best hand to the person of your choice.

 

OP

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Been doing a bit more reading on this......TPWD may also be looking at Sodium Nitrite as a potential hog control agent....from what I've read, it may be a safer alternative to warfarin.

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Yes, and that is a big part of the problem. Other things were under consideration in Texas and Miller "fast-tracked" Kaput (warfarin) for use. "Fast-tracked" was his words and apparently he didn't do it legally.

 

Press Release
Texas Hog Hunters Association
March 2, 2017


This afternoon, State District Judge Jan Soifer issued a temporary restraining order enjoining Texas Agriculture Commissioner Sid Miller and the Texas Department of Agriculture from implementing the “emergency rule” that they had issued to try to facilitate the use of rat poison across Texas lands for feral hogs. Specifically, Judge Soifer’s Order stated in part that Defendants Sid Miller and the Department “did not follow the requirements of the Texas Administrative Procedure Act . . . and so therefore the rule is invalid.”

The Plaintiff in the case was Wild Boar Meats, L.L.C, a feral-hog processing business headquartered in Hubbard, Texas. The Texas Hog Hunters Association (THHA) and the Environmental Defense Fund also intervened in the case on the side of Wild Boar Meats.

Eydin Hanson, Vice President of THHA, said “15,000 members and supporters of THHA have signed a petition against this ill-advised rule. Spreading rat poison across Texas lands would hurt Texas hunters, Texas hunting-supply businesses, Texas feral-hog meat processing businesses, Texas ranchers, and the Texas environment. We are very grateful that Judge Soifer ruled in our favor. We hope that Commissioner Miller will now follow the law and allow public comment and careful consideration before proposing use of any poison on feral hogs. The emergency rule would have damaged feral-hog control in Texas rather than helping it. We urge all Texans to contact their elected representatives to make sure that Texas lands are not poisoned in this manner.”

 

 

My real concern with the Kaput plan was that it was wholly untenable. In order to replicate the results that Miller cited from Australia, we would need a simultaneous deployment of something like 1.2 million special hog-only feeders that would have to be baited with 'lure' to educate hogs and then baited with poison 'bait' to kill the hogs over a period of days. Any feeders in the areas of livestock would have to be securely fenced off to preclude livestock from having any access. After all, hogs can and do make messes. After deployment of the poison, feeders would have to be regularly policed for poison spillage so that wildlife does not eat it. All of these hogs would have the be policed up and buried (according to EPA and Kaput directions). So basically, you would need a small army to make this happen, but we know that won't happen. Some people would have been willing to try running a feeder or two, but this would be piecemeal. I am certain that nobody would have been willing to follow the rules properly, certainly not over the long term. What would have resulted is a lot of expense for landowners with no appreciable suppression of the population because not enough would be using the system or using it properly.

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