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Out of state rifle purchase


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#1 swimmer

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 11:18 AM

I will vacation in your great state again this winter. Question: Can an out-of-stater buy a rifle in TEXAS?

#2 GonHuntin

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 12:20 PM

I will vacation in your great state again this winter. Question: Can an out-of-stater buy a rifle in TEXAS?


http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/

(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(B)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

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#3 speedrock

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 02:55 PM

You can buy the gun from a dealer out of state but they have to ship it to another dealer where you live. So, you can buy and pay for it, then when you get home have your local dealer fax them a copy of his FFL and the gun will be shipped to him so he can do the proper paper work.


EDIT:

Speedrock

The info you posted is incorrect.......see my post above.......Swimmer can legally buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, from a licensed dealer in Texas as long as the sale complies with State laws applicable in Texas and in the State where the Swimmer lives.....that is the law......... GonHuntin

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#4 jdickey

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 10:45 AM

One addition to what GH has posted.... the FFL dealer's license must also be the type that will allow out of state purchases. For example, Academy can sell long guns only to residents of states that are contiguous to Texas...... New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana.
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#5 GonHuntin

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 10:18 AM

One addition to what GH has posted.... the FFL dealer's license must also be the type that will allow out of state purchases. For example, Academy can sell long guns only to residents of states that are contiguous to Texas...... New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana.



That may be a company policy, it sure isn't law......straight from the dealer section of the BATF website.........

http://www.atf.treas...faq/faq2.htm#f2

F. CONDUCT OF BUSINESS - LICENSEES
(F2) May a licensed dealer sell a firearm to a non-licensee who is a resident of another State? [Back]

Generally, a firearm may not lawfully be sold by a licensed dealer to a non-licensee who resides in a State other than the State in which the seller’s licensed premises is located. However, the sale may be made if the firearm is shipped to a licensed dealer whose business is in the purchaser’s State of residence and the purchaser takes delivery of the firearm from the dealer in his or her State of residence. In addition, a licensee may sell a rifle or shotgun to a person who is not a resident of the State where the licensee’s business premises is located in an over-the-counter transaction, provided the transaction complies with State law in the State where the licensee is located and in the State where the purchaser resides.

[18 U.S.C. 922(B)(3)]

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#6 Ole Blood

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 07:31 PM

Well GH you are but half right insofar as the law in Arkansas is concerned. Our FFL dealors can only sell directly to nonresidents only if they are a resident of an adjoining state regardless of BATF rules and regs.

Can be confusing I suppose.


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#7 Alleninalaska

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 07:46 PM

Florida state law prohibits dealers from selling long guns to non-residents standing at their counter.
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#8 GonHuntin

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 08:03 PM

Guys

Go back and look at what JD wrote: "the FFL dealer's license must also be the type that will allow out of state purchases".........there isn't a different type of FFL (FEDERAL firearms license) that will allow out of state purchases.........you are, of course, correct, in that state laws can vary, but that has nothing to do with the Federal license or federal law, of which I was speaking and I guess I should have made that clear.........

Rick

Could you please point me to the Arkansas law that prohibits gun sales to residents of non contiguous states??? I've looked and sure can't find it???

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#9 GonHuntin

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 08:34 PM

Allen

I did some research and can't find any Florida law that prohibits sales of long guns to non residents....can you point me in the right direction??........

I did find this, which applies to out of state purchases by Florida residents:

790.28 Purchase of rifles and shotguns in contiguous states.--A resident of this state may purchase a rifle or shotgun in any state contiguous to this state if he or she conforms to applicable laws and regulations of the United States, of the state where the purchase is made, and of this state.


And, I found this:
[quote]

1790.065 Sale and delivery of firearms.--

(1) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer may not sell or deliver from her or his inventory at her or his licensed premises any firearm to another person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, until she or he has:

(a) Obtained a completed form from the potential buyer or transferee, which form shall have been promulgated by the Department of Law Enforcement and provided by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, which shall include the name, date of birth, gender, race, and social security number or other identification number of such potential buyer or transferee and has inspected proper identification including an identification containing a photograph of the potential buyer or transferee.

(B) Collected a fee from the potential buyer for processing the criminal history check of the potential buyer. The fee shall be established by the Department of Law Enforcement and may not exceed $8 per transaction. The Department of Law Enforcement may reduce, or suspend collection of, the fee to reflect payment received from the Federal Government applied to the cost of maintaining the criminal history check system established by this section as a means of facilitating or supplementing the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. The Department of Law Enforcement shall, by rule, establish procedures for the fees to be transmitted by the licensee to the Department of Law Enforcement. All such fees shall be deposited into the Department of Law Enforcement Operating Trust Fund, but shall be segregated from all other funds deposited into such trust fund and must be accounted for separately. Such segregated funds must not be used for any purpose other than the operation of the criminal history checks required by this section. The Department of Law Enforcement, each year prior to February 1, shall make a full accounting of all receipts and expenditures of such funds to the President of the Senate, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the majority and minority leaders of each house of the Legislature, and the chairs of the appropriations committees of each house of the Legislature. In the event that the cumulative amount of funds collected exceeds the cumulative amount of expenditures by more than $2.5 million, excess funds may be used for the purpose of purchasing soft body armor for law enforcement officers.

© Requested, by means of a toll-free telephone call, the Department of Law Enforcement to conduct a check of the information as reported and reflected in the Florida Crime Information Center and National Crime Information Center systems as of the date of the request.

(d) Received a unique approval number for that inquiry from the Department of Law Enforcement, and recorded the date and such number on the consent form.

However, if the person purchasing, or receiving delivery of, the firearm is a holder of a valid concealed weapons or firearms license pursuant to the provisions of s. 790.06 or holds an active certification from the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission as a "law enforcement officer," a "correctional officer," or a "correctional probation officer" as defined in s. 943.10(1), (2), (3), (6), (7), (8), or (9), the provisions of this subsection do not apply.

(2) Upon receipt of a request for a criminal history record check, the Department of Law Enforcement shall, during the licensee's call or by return call, forthwith:

(a) Review any records available to determine if the potential buyer or transferee:

1. Has been convicted of a felony and is prohibited from receipt or possession of a firearm pursuant to s. 790.23;

2. Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, and therefore is prohibited from purchasing a firearm;

3. Has had adjudication of guilt withheld or imposition of sentence suspended on any felony or misdemeanor crime of domestic violence unless 3 years have elapsed since probation or any other conditions set by the court have been fulfilled or expunction has occurred; or

4. Has been adjudicated mentally defective or has been committed to a mental institution by a court and as a result is prohibited by federal law from purchasing a firearm.

a. As used in this subparagraph, "adjudicated mentally defective" means a determination by a court that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease, is a danger to himself or herself or to others or lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his or her own affairs. The phrase includes a judicial finding of incapacity under s. 744.331(6)(a), an acquittal by reason of insanity of a person charged with a criminal offense, and a judicial finding that a criminal defendant is not competent to stand trial.

b. As used in this subparagraph, "committed to a mental institution" means involuntary commitment, commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness, and commitment for substance abuse. The phrase includes involuntary inpatient placement as defined in s. 394.467, involuntary outpatient placement as defined in s. 394.4655, involuntary assessment and stabilization under s. 397.6818, and involuntary substance abuse treatment under s. 397.6957, but does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or discharged from a mental institution based upon the initial review by the physician or a voluntary admission to a mental institution.

c. In order to check for these conditions, the department shall compile and maintain an automated database of persons who are prohibited from purchasing a firearm based on court records of adjudications of mental defectiveness or commitments to mental institutions. Clerks of court shall submit these records to the department within 1 month after the rendition of the adjudication or commitment. Reports may be submitted in an automated format. The reports must, at a minimum, include the name, along with any known alias or former name, the sex, and the date of birth of the subject. The department shall delete any mental health record from the database upon request of an individual when 5 years have elapsed since the individual's restoration to capacity by court order after being adjudicated an incapacitated person under s. 744.331, or similar laws of any other state; or, in the case of an individual who was previously committed to a mental institution under chapter 394, or similar laws of any other state, when the individual produces a certificate from a licensed psychiatrist that he or she has not suffered from disability for at least 5 years prior to the date of request for removal of the record. When the department has received a subsequent record of an adjudication of mental defectiveness or commitment to a mental institution for such individual, the 5-year timeframe shall be calculated from the most recent adjudication of incapacitation or commitment.

d. The department is authorized to disclose the collected data to agencies of the Federal Government and other states for use exclusively in determining the lawfulness of a firearm sale or transfer. The department is also authorized to disclose any collected data to the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services for purposes of determining eligibility for issuance of a concealed weapons or concealed firearms license and for determining whether a basis exists for revoking or suspending a previously issued license pursuant to s. 790.06(10). When a potential buyer or transferee appeals a nonapproval based on these records, the clerks of court and mental institutions shall, upon request by the department, provide information to help determine whether the potential buyer or transferee is the same person as the subject of the record. Photographs and any other data that could confirm or negate identity must be made available to the department for such purposes, notwithstanding any other provision of state law to the contrary. Any such information that is made confidential or exempt from disclosure by law shall retain such confidential or exempt status when transferred to the department.

(B) Inform the licensee making the inquiry either that records demonstrate that the buyer or transferee is so prohibited and provide the licensee a nonapproval number, or provide the licensee with a unique approval number.

©1. Review any records available to it to determine whether the potential buyer or transferee has been indicted or has had an information filed against her or him for an offense that is a felony under either state or federal law, or, as mandated by federal law, has had an injunction for protection against domestic violence entered against the potential buyer or transferee under s. 741.30, has had an injunction for protection against repeat violence entered against the potential buyer or transferee under s. 784.046, or has been arrested for a dangerous crime as specified in s. 907.041(4)(a) or for any of the following enumerated offenses:

a. Criminal anarchy under ss. 876.01 and 876.02.

b. Extortion under s. 836.05.

c. Explosives violations under s. 552.22(1) and (2).

d. Controlled substances violations under chapter 893.

e. Resisting an officer with violence under s. 843.01.

f. Weapons and firearms violations under this chapter.

g. Treason under s. 876.32.

h. Assisting self-murder under s. 782.08.

i. Sabotage under s. 876.38.

j. Stalking or aggravated stalking under s. 784.048.

If the review indicates any such indictment, information, or arrest, the department shall provide to the licensee a conditional nonapproval number.

2. Within 24 working hours, the department shall determine the disposition of the indictment, information, or arrest and inform the licensee as to whether the potential buyer is prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm. For purposes of this paragraph, "working hours" means the hours from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. Monday through Friday, excluding legal holidays.

3. The office of the clerk of court, at no charge to the department, shall respond to any department request for data on the disposition of the indictment, information, or arrest as soon as possible, but in no event later than 8 working hours.

4. The department shall determine as quickly as possible within the allotted time period whether the potential buyer is prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm.

5. If the potential buyer is not so prohibited, or if the department cannot determine the disposition information within the allotted time period, the department shall provide the licensee with a conditional approval number.

6. If the buyer is so prohibited, the conditional nonapproval number shall become a nonapproval number.

7. The department shall continue its attempts to obtain the disposition information and may retain a record of all approval numbers granted without sufficient disposition information. If the department later obtains disposition information which indicates:

a. That the potential buyer is not prohibited from owning a firearm, it shall treat the record of the transaction in accordance with this section; or

b. That the potential buyer is prohibited from owning a firearm, it shall immediately revoke the conditional approval number and notify local law enforcement.

8. During the time that disposition of the indictment, information, or arrest is pending and until the department is notified by the potential buyer that there has been a final disposition of the indictment, information, or arrest, the conditional nonapproval number shall remain in effect.

(3) In the event of scheduled computer downtime, electronic failure, or similar emergency beyond the control of the Department of Law Enforcement, the department shall immediately notify the licensee of the reason for, and estimated length of, such delay. After such notification, the department shall forthwith, and in no event later than the end of the next business day of the licensee, either inform the requesting licensee if its records demonstrate that the buyer or transferee is prohibited from receipt or possession of a firearm pursuant to Florida and Federal law or provide the licensee with a unique approval number. Unless notified by the end of said next business day that the buyer or transferee is so prohibited, and without regard to whether she or he has received a unique approval number, the licensee may complete the sale or transfer and shall not be deemed in violation of this section with respect to such sale or transfer.

(4)(a) Any records containing any of the information set forth in subsection (1) pertaining to a buyer or transferee who is not found to be prohibited from receipt or transfer of a firearm by reason of Florida and federal law which records are created by the Department of Law Enforcement to conduct the criminal history record check shall be confidential and exempt from the provisions of s. 119.07(1) and may not be disclosed by the Department of Law Enforcement or any officer or employee thereof to any person or to another agency. The Department of Law Enforcement shall destroy any such records forthwith after it communicates the approval and nonapproval numbers to the licensee and, in any event, such records shall be destroyed within 48 hours after the day of the response to the licensee's request.

(B) Notwithstanding the provisions of this subsection, the Department of Law Enforcement may maintain records of NCIC transactions to the extent required by the Federal Government, and may maintain a log of dates of requests for criminal history records checks, unique approval and nonapproval numbers, license identification numbers, and transaction numbers corresponding to such dates for a period of not longer than 2 years or as otherwise required by law.

© Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow the State of Florida to maintain records containing the names of purchasers or transferees who receive unique approval numbers or to maintain records of firearm transactions.

(d) Any officer or employee, or former officer or employee of the Department of Law Enforcement or law enforcement agency who intentionally and maliciously violates the provisions of this subsection commits a felony of the third degree punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(5) The Department of Law Enforcement shall establish a toll-free telephone number which shall be operational 7 days a week with the exception of Christmas Day and New Year's Day, for a period of 12 hours a day beginning at 9 a.m. and ending at 9 p.m., for purposes of responding to inquiries as described in this section from licensed manufacturers, licensed importers, and licensed dealers. The Department of Law Enforcement shall employ and train such personnel as are necessary expeditiously to administer the provisions of this section.

(6) Any person who is denied the right to receive or purchase a firearm as a result of the procedures established by this section may request a criminal history records review and correction in accordance with the rules promulgated by the Department of Law Enforcement.

(7) It shall be unlawful for any licensed dealer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed importer willfully and intentionally to request criminal history record information under false pretenses, or willfully and intentionally to disseminate criminal history record information to any person other than the subject of such information. Any person convicted of a violation of this subsection commits a felony of the third degree punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(8) The Department of Law Enforcement shall promulgate regulations to ensure the identity, confidentiality, and security of all records and data provided pursuant to this section.

(9) This section shall become effective at such time as the Department of Law Enforcement has notified all licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, and licensed dealers in writing that the procedures and toll-free number described in this section are operational. This section shall remain in effect only during such times as the procedures described in subsection (2) remain operational.

(10) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer is not required to comply with the requirements of this section in the event of:

(a) Unavailability of telephone service at the licensed premises due to the failure of the entity which provides telephone service in the state, region, or other geographical area in which the licensee is located to provide telephone service to the premises of the licensee due to the location of said premises; or the interruption of telephone service by reason of hurricane, tornado, flood, natural disaster, or other act of God, war, invasion, insurrection, riot, or other bona fide emergency, or other reason beyond the control of the licensee; or

(B) Failure of the Department of Law Enforcement to comply with the requirements of subsections (2) and (3).

(11) Compliance with the provisions of this chapter shall be a complete defense to any claim or cause of action under the laws of any state for liability for damages arising from the importation or manufacture, or the subsequent sale or transfer to any person who has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year, of any firearm which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce. The Department of Law Enforcement, its agents and employees shall not be liable for any claim or cause of action under the laws of any state for liability for damages arising from its actions in lawful compliance with this section.

(12)(a) Any potential buyer or transferee who willfully and knowingly provides false information or false or fraudulent identification commits a felony of the third degree punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(B) Any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer who violates the provisions of subsection (1) commits a felony of the third degree punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

© Any employee or agency of a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer who violates the provisions of subsection (1) commits a felony of the third degree punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(d) Any person who knowingly acquires a firearm through purchase or transfer intended for the use of a person who is prohibited by state or federal law from possessing or receiving a firearm commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(13) This section does not apply to employees of sheriff's offices, municipal police departments, correctional facilities or agencies, or other criminal justice or governmental agencies when the purchases or transfers are made on behalf of an employing agency for official law enforcement purposes.

(14) This section is repealed effective October 1, 2009.

History.--s. 1, ch. 89-191; s. 1, ch. 90-316; s. 4, ch. 92-183; s. 1, ch. 93-197; s. 1, ch. 94-256; s. 14, ch. 95-195; s. 8, ch. 95-430; s. 7, ch. 96-392; s. 429, ch. 96-406; s. 29, ch. 97-94; s. 1816, ch. 97-102; s. 6, ch. 98-284; ss. 8, 9, ch. 99-300; s. 1, ch. 2000-218; s. 12, ch. 2002-205; s. 3, ch. 2003-23; s. 1, ch. 2004-79; s. 1, ch. 2006-176; s. 1, ch. 2008-50.

1Note.--

A. Section 1, ch. 89-191, provides that "[t]his section expires on the effective date of federal law which provides access to national criminal history information and requires national criminal history checks on potential buyers or transferees on firearms."

B. Section 3, ch. 90-316, provides that "[t]his act shall not be construed to nullify the expiration of s. 790.065, Florida Statutes, provided for in chapter 89-191, Laws of Florida."/quote]

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#10 Ole Blood

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 07:40 AM

Mark

The following is the Arkansas law oft cited to mean that face to face transactions are only permited within Arkansas and those of adjoining states.


5-73-125. Interstate sale and purchase of shotguns, rifles, and ammunition.

(a) The sale of shotguns and rifles and ammunition in this state to residents of adjacent states is authorized pursuant to regulations issued by the Secretary of the Treasury under the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq., as the act is in effect on March 4, 1969.

(B) A resident of this state is permitted to purchase a rifle, shotgun, or ammunition in an adjacent state as expressly authorized pursuant to the regulations issued under the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq., as the act is in effect on March 4, 1969.

HISTORY: Acts 1969, No. 159, §§ 1, 2; A.S.A. 1947, §§ 41-3174, 41-3175.

Note that the code only concerns itself with sales or purchases of firearms through adjacent states. Interesting insn't it.

Rick
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#11 Bobcat

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 09:17 AM

Rick,

Did you send GH a bill for the legal consultation and research???? <_<

All of these restrictions are bogus and I am afraid the worst is yet to come.

Bob :P

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#12 GonHuntin

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 10:26 AM

Mark

The following is the Arkansas law oft cited to mean that face to face transactions are only permited within Arkansas and those of adjoining states.


5-73-125. Interstate sale and purchase of shotguns, rifles, and ammunition.

(a) The sale of shotguns and rifles and ammunition in this state to residents of adjacent states is authorized pursuant to regulations issued by the Secretary of the Treasury under the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq., as the act is in effect on March 4, 1969.

(B) A resident of this state is permitted to purchase a rifle, shotgun, or ammunition in an adjacent state as expressly authorized pursuant to the regulations issued under the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq., as the act is in effect on March 4, 1969.

HISTORY: Acts 1969, No. 159, §§ 1, 2; A.S.A. 1947, §§ 41-3174, 41-3175.

Note that the code only concerns itself with sales or purchases of firearms through adjacent states. Interesting insn't it.

Rick


Yep, it's interesting.......so, do you support the point of view that, because the law specifically permits purchase by residents of contiguous states that it prohibits purchase by those residents of non contiguous states???

or......do you support the idea that, because the law does not specifically prohibit purchase by residents of non contiguous states, that the purchase is allowed???

You are the lawyer, but it seems that 5-73-125 protects the right to purchase and sell to contiguous state residents, but doesn't prohibit anything???


Oklahoma has a similar law, but I have seen Oklahoma dealers sell to residents of non contiguous states......

Oklahoma

§21 1288. Purchases of firearms, ammunition and equipment in contiguous states by Oklahoma residents Purchases in Oklahoma by residents of contiguous states.

(a) Residents of the State of Oklahoma may purchase rifles, shotguns, ammunition, cartridge and shotgun shell handloading components and equipment in a state contiguous to the State of Oklahoma, provided that such residents conform to the applicable provisions of the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968, and regulations thereunder, as administered by the United States Secretary of the Treasury and provided further that such residents conform to the provisions of law applicable to such purchase in the State of Oklahoma and in the contiguous state in which the purchase is made.
(B) Residents of a state contiguous to the State of Oklahoma may purchase rifles, shotguns, ammunition, cartridge and shotgun shell handloading components and equipment in the State of Oklahoma provided that such residents conform to the applicable provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968, and regulations thereunder, as administered by the United States Secretary of the Treasury and provided further that such residents conform to the provisions of law applicable to such purchase in the State of Oklahoma and in the state in which such persons reside.

Laws 1969, c. 230, § 1, emerg. eff. April 21, 1969


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#13 Ole Blood

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 07:39 PM

I think a logical interpertation at first blush is that because something is allowed that per say by statute that the opposite would also be true and selling to a non-resident who does not live in an adjacent state would be illegal.

But an arguement could still be made that because interstate commerce is defined and regulated on a Federal level and criminal laws are narrowly construed and finally that courts do not like statutes or laws to be deemed illegal or overruled by implication it is clear as mud.

Nevertheless, our FFLs still obey it.

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